crimefighters3 said:
crimefighters3,
LNS is the main reason we lost Pierwolf, and "really good" is quite subjective. I respect your opinion, but vehemently disagree.
DC
LNS Discussion
- Thread starter DCurrent
- Start date
crimefighters3,
LNS is the main reason we lost Pierwolf, and "really good" is quite subjective. I respect your opinion, but vehemently disagree.
DC
Hanzo
Active member
I play the LNS version before and its too bloated for its own good. Yes it has a LOT of characters and some cool fan service but I really like Pierwolf original version since it is more balanced and streamlined.
Sucks to lose Pierwolf since he is a talented modder and made some really good mods especially his Knights of the Round one.
Sucks to lose Pierwolf since he is a talented modder and made some really good mods especially his Knights of the Round one.
Damon CaskeyDamon Caskey said:
I totally agree with you buddy, I prefer the Pierwolf's version.
Well, recently I received a message from the LNS team. I would mention it later, but since we are talking about it, I will use the same post.
Recently they tried to make with SOR2X the same thing as they made with the Final Fight Gold. I've been talking to them for over a month, one of the members of the LNS said that they are banned from Chrono Crash and now I understand why.
They start to make tons of updates saying that their changes are "mucho, mucho mejor", constantly trying to force you to give up and let them take full control over the project including all future updates. So, I need to warn all members here in the forum that the LNS version of the SOR2X has NOT my approval.
At the first time they made small updates and I said that I have no problem with it, and I said that I'm always open to receive suggestions. So, they made a second update bigger than the previous and it changed a lot of things. They replaced most of my original ideas in game's mechanic, changed backgrounds, program icon, etc and asked me to give support to them in MY own webpage
As I can see, they stalk some projects slowly and take control over by force, step by step. I said to them that I disagree with most updates they are making, but I can't prohibit them because the SOR franchise is not my property.
But don't worry, I will not give up in this battle and will continue working in the SOR2X, but I need to warn all you about this situation. And it will be good if the entire OpenBOR community starts to give the appropriate feedback about the LNS team. Yesterday was Pierwolf's project, today was mine and tomorrow may be your project.
Although they are high skilled modders, the way that they make things is too bad...
O Ilusionista
Captain 100K
Kratus said:At the first time they made small updates and I said that I have no problem with it, and I said that I'm always open to receive suggestions. So, they made a second update bigger than the previous and it changed a lot of things. They replaced most of my original ideas in game's mechanic, changed backgrounds, program icon, etc and asked me to give support to them in MY own webpage
As I can see, they stalk some projects slowly and take control over by force, step by step. I said to them that I disagree with most updates they are making, but I can't prohibit them because the SOR franchise is not my property.
Although they are high skilled modders, the way that they make things is too bad...
Now you understand why. They did the same even with the OpenBOR engine itself...
This is something that will never happens, believe me. I know this is going to sound tough, but it's something I've learned over the years: many people in the gaming communities (whatever the engine is for) don't care about the creators, the engine, etc. They are like drug users: they just want more and more. They don't care where it comes from and who delivers it, they just want to consume.
hechelion
Member
Damon Caskey said:
Sorry.
But that seems like an accusation to me and I would like to know how it is possible that Pier wolf will retire because of a game.
We have never had bad words or bad intentions with Pier wolf.
For our part, we have tried to be the most correct and respectful, all LNS modules always keep credits to the original work of Pier Wolf.
We have not promoted, spoken or even answered questions from FFLNS in this forum, out of respect for you, and now blaming us that Pier wolf is retiring, it does not seem right to me.
hechelion
Member
Kratus said:Damon CaskeyDamon Caskey said:
I totally agree with you buddy, I prefer the Pierwolf's version.
Well, recently I received a message from the LNS team. I would mention it later, but since we are talking about it, I will use the same post.
Recently they tried to make with SOR2X the same thing as they made with the Final Fight Gold. I've been talking to them for over a month, one of the members of the LNS said that they are banned from Chrono Crash and now I understand why.
They start to make tons of updates saying that their changes are "mucho, mucho mejor", constantly trying to force you to give up and let them take full control over the project including all future updates. So, I need to warn all members here in the forum that the LNS version of the SOR2X has NOT my approval.
At the first time they made small updates and I said that I have no problem with it, and I said that I'm always open to receive suggestions. So, they made a second update bigger than the previous and it changed a lot of things. They replaced most of my original ideas in game's mechanic, changed backgrounds, program icon, etc and asked me to give support to them in MY own webpage
As I can see, they stalk some projects slowly and take control over by force, step by step. I said to them that I disagree with most updates they are making, but I can't prohibit them because the SOR franchise is not my property.
But don't worry, I will not give up in this battle and will continue working in the SOR2X, but I need to warn all you about this situation. And it will be good if the entire OpenBOR community starts to give the appropriate feedback about the LNS team. Yesterday was Pierwolf's project, today was mine and tomorrow may be your project.
Although they are high skilled modders, the way that they make things is too bad...
Hi Kratos.
Nestor is the person who make that change, but this version is only for personal used and never be release to public. Not without your permission. Nestor Talk with you about this (and I just spoke to Nestor to clarify this).
So, you never see a sor2X LNS version in internet. You can be calm in that aspect
If Nestor's attitude bothered you, I apologize, but we really had no intention of passing over your work.
EDIT:
PD: And by the way, Nestor is not LNS
LNS is a community with several dozen people, and what one of them does does not mean that the whole community shares it.
O Ilusionista
Captain 100K
hechelion said:
Nobody cited your name, so no accusation were made to you directly.
About Pierwolf, I've asked about him to Don Drago and Pierwolf sent a message talking about his "disconfort with people using his stuff to make bad games, which made me lost the motivation to work on new openbor mods". I won't share the full content of the message here.
The author itself said that he wasn't happy with this, and the team decided to ignore him. So get over it.
This subject is set on stone. We have no interest in fights about this subject here, so any single trace of flame war, will be shot on sight.
hechelion
Member
Hi O-Ilusionista.
I participate in the LNS community, therefore, when the LNS community is accused, it does mention my work.
I have no intention of creating a war of any kind, quite the contrary. But it is a story there are always 2 versions and the right thing to do is to listen to both. If anyone has been upset by the work of LNS, as I said before, I apologize, but we really are not the bad guys as many of these last posts say.
EDIT
we discover Pier Wolk don't like this, when I tolk with you, year later, If Pier wolf or any from chronocrash would have contacted us at the beginning of the project, to tell us this. FFLNS would not exist.
I participate in the LNS community, therefore, when the LNS community is accused, it does mention my work.
I have no intention of creating a war of any kind, quite the contrary. But it is a story there are always 2 versions and the right thing to do is to listen to both. If anyone has been upset by the work of LNS, as I said before, I apologize, but we really are not the bad guys as many of these last posts say.
EDIT
The only time with speak with Peir Wolf, he says "don't have problems".
we discover Pier Wolk don't like this, when I tolk with you, year later, If Pier wolf or any from chronocrash would have contacted us at the beginning of the project, to tell us this. FFLNS would not exist.
O Ilusionista
Captain 100K
We listen to both sides and remain on Pierwolf's side, like anyone with common sense.
I prefer not to go into the detail that as I personally find the "if someone has been offended" part ironic while continuing to use / distribute the content that offended the original author.
And, apparently, the same will be done with Kratus' work.
edit:
This just prove my point...
hechelion
Member
I am not trying to be ironic, as I said before, we have no bad intentions and many of these problems were due to a misunderstanding because Pier Wolf never told us about don't used his work.
And this is not about taking sides and turning it into a war, it is not my intention, as I said. If not, clarify our point of view.
By the way, when we found out that Pier wolf had changed his mind, we tried our best not to use any of the FF Gold.
Currently FFLNS is a completely new game. We removed all of Pier Wolf's original code (But we continue to give him credit for his work).
FF Gold, used a 4xxx Openbor version.
FFLNS used a 6330 Openbor version.
FF Gold is 300MB mod, with about 20 characters and about 40 enemies. about 10 phases, etc.
FFLNs is 1.9 GB mod, about 80 characters, 100 enemies, about 30 phases, etc.
They are not the same game.
And this is not about taking sides and turning it into a war, it is not my intention, as I said. If not, clarify our point of view.
By the way, when we found out that Pier wolf had changed his mind, we tried our best not to use any of the FF Gold.
Currently FFLNS is a completely new game. We removed all of Pier Wolf's original code (But we continue to give him credit for his work).
FF Gold, used a 4xxx Openbor version.
FFLNS used a 6330 Openbor version.
FF Gold is 300MB mod, with about 20 characters and about 40 enemies. about 10 phases, etc.
FFLNs is 1.9 GB mod, about 80 characters, 100 enemies, about 30 phases, etc.
They are not the same game.
O Ilusionista
Captain 100K
Now the damage is done, so it's useless to try to explain anything.
Specially when we will see the same kind of "not having bad intentions" with Kratus work. Again, the author himself says he is okay with some changes (as Pierwolf stated long time ago) but he is not okay with this take over.
But we all know how this will end: A "custom mucho mejor" version of the game, a "better and not maintained by a bunch of retrazados" engine and so on.
I am out of this because I already watched this movie before. I will let Damon Caskey handle this.
hechelion
Member
I already say, Sor2X modification, are Nestor work, NOT LNS Team (But kratos talk about LNS team).
I have also discussed this with Nestor and as I said, all these modifications are for internal use only and will never be released to the public without the authorization of Kratus. And after reading the Kratus post, I know that will never happen. You have my word.
I have also discussed this with Nestor and as I said, all these modifications are for internal use only and will never be released to the public without the authorization of Kratus. And after reading the Kratus post, I know that will never happen. You have my word.
hechelion said:
hechelion,
Several members here have spoken to Pierwolf directly - he was and is a very respected and very helpful member of this community. The only thing he ever asked for was that people not make knockoffs of his modules like LNS. Obviously he could not enforce his wishes since none of us own the Final Fight franchise, but it's a fair request to make, and LNS would not respect it. So he left. He has stated very clearly that is the main reason he no longer participates in this community.
You try to tell me you respect Pierwolf, yet not only did LNS go against his wishes, the Final Fight LNS website does not mention him AT ALL. Instead it implies that LNS developed the game from scratch.
I've cracked open FFLNS just to see for myself, and it simply isn't true. The basic skeleton is Pierwolf's work. LNS also claims they invented the cancel system.
That's almost comic. Canceling is a native feature of the engine that's been around for over a decade.
Furthermore, the LNS crew also refused to respect my wishes with the engine itself. The community discourages engine forks because we know first hand the problems forking OpenBOR causes. You, O Ilusionista, and I had a very lengthy conversation, all all on record, where we tried to explain why we won't support a custom build of the engine. We offered you a seat at the table - to contribute to the main engine. Instead we got told LNS would do what they want and we couldn't stop them. Well... you are right about that. You followed the license, and because of that I can't do anything to stop you from using the engine. But I warned you that if LNS created and distributed a custom fork that Chronocrash would not support them in any way. You all made your decision and now you can live with it.
It's also come to my attention that even before any interaction between our communities, LNS members and fans were being juvenile and abrasive toward us, calling the engine "shit", me an idiot, our forum trash, and so on. The really sad part is that every functionality LNS supposedly added to the engine - it already has. If LNS was interested in cooperation instead of trying to give me a morality lesson on open source and calling us names, maybe we could have helped you understand this "shit" engine a little better and saved you some time.
That's not something to brag about. It's a bloated mess that could easily be 1/3 the size without losing content. See also: If LNS were actually interested in cooperation, we would have helped you optimize.
I do not have any problem with you personally. You are very polite and I respect that. But when you represent LNS, you represent a group of bad actors. Why do they care what we think anyway? LNS is famous on the web now. They've got dozens of YouTube videos, reedit posts, even guys like TopHat Man all talking about it. FFLNS eclipsed everything our community has ever done in popularity. Congrats to you. But none of that changes the behaviors we see from LNS. They are nothing at all like you say. Until we see proof otherwise, my stance remains the same.
DC
hechelion
Member
Hi Damon Caskey
A lot of things and I honestly think that many are due to being read with a bad predisposition.
For example, we have never hinted that the game was created from scratch nor did we take credit for things like the development of "cancel".
Words like "novelty" were added by a person who offered to create the website and are not intended to appropriate your work, if not, simple advertising to the game.
If you think that the way it is written, leads to confusion and undermines your work, I invite you to write me those sentences with your words and I promise that they will be changed on the web (personally I do not have access to the web, if not , I changed it by myself).
The credits to Pier Wolf, we took them from the website after the conversation I had with you a while ago. Precisely to respect his wish, if you consider that it is better, it can be replaced (But I remind you that they are still in the game).
I'm not sure what you mean by "cracked" the FFLNS, and it brings me back to the same thing, we are reading and writing with a bad predisposition.
FFLNS does not have any changes to the code that reads or writes the .PAKs and all changes made to the engine are available for free use from the web page, so we have never tried to hide anything.
The code has not been uploaded to github or anything similar, precisely to respect your wish not to fork the engine. But respecting the license, the modifications must be available to anyone who wants to see them. And that includes you, as I told you some time ago, if you like any of the changes that I implemented for this game and you want to add them to the engine, welcome.
Unfortunately, it is impossible for the FFLNS mod to use vanilla Openbor. Since various changes, for example increasing the number of characters, would not be useful to 99% of the mods. It does not seem correct to me that the code of an engine is changed, just to add compatibility to a game, I prefer and I think it is more orderly also for you, that these modifications only materialize as an exception of a game that needed them.
If you believe or feel that we have some of it both in the game and on the website, disparage your work or Pierwolf's, again, I invite you to tell me how we can improve it and I promise to make all those changes.
When one community writes badly about the other, it is unfortunately normal for the other community to respond as well. Many of the words we read against LNS from people in the Chronocrash community are quite offensive as well.
Unfortunately the animosity between the two communities will take much longer to disappear, but we can only achieve that if we begin to work together, talking and avoiding bad dispositions.
I know that I have several things left in the "inkwell", but I have already written enough.
PS: Excuse my poor englis.
A lot of things and I honestly think that many are due to being read with a bad predisposition.
For example, we have never hinted that the game was created from scratch nor did we take credit for things like the development of "cancel".
Words like "novelty" were added by a person who offered to create the website and are not intended to appropriate your work, if not, simple advertising to the game.
If you think that the way it is written, leads to confusion and undermines your work, I invite you to write me those sentences with your words and I promise that they will be changed on the web (personally I do not have access to the web, if not , I changed it by myself).
The credits to Pier Wolf, we took them from the website after the conversation I had with you a while ago. Precisely to respect his wish, if you consider that it is better, it can be replaced (But I remind you that they are still in the game).
I'm not sure what you mean by "cracked" the FFLNS, and it brings me back to the same thing, we are reading and writing with a bad predisposition.
FFLNS does not have any changes to the code that reads or writes the .PAKs and all changes made to the engine are available for free use from the web page, so we have never tried to hide anything.
The code has not been uploaded to github or anything similar, precisely to respect your wish not to fork the engine. But respecting the license, the modifications must be available to anyone who wants to see them. And that includes you, as I told you some time ago, if you like any of the changes that I implemented for this game and you want to add them to the engine, welcome.
Unfortunately, it is impossible for the FFLNS mod to use vanilla Openbor. Since various changes, for example increasing the number of characters, would not be useful to 99% of the mods. It does not seem correct to me that the code of an engine is changed, just to add compatibility to a game, I prefer and I think it is more orderly also for you, that these modifications only materialize as an exception of a game that needed them.
If you believe or feel that we have some of it both in the game and on the website, disparage your work or Pierwolf's, again, I invite you to tell me how we can improve it and I promise to make all those changes.
When one community writes badly about the other, it is unfortunately normal for the other community to respond as well. Many of the words we read against LNS from people in the Chronocrash community are quite offensive as well.
Unfortunately the animosity between the two communities will take much longer to disappear, but we can only achieve that if we begin to work together, talking and avoiding bad dispositions.
I know that I have several things left in the "inkwell", but I have already written enough.
PS: Excuse my poor englis.
hechelion,
I will acknowledge there may be some miscommunication going on. I don't have time to write another lengthy post right now, but I'll think on this and get back soon. As for Pierwolf and credit on the website, I do not know his preference about that and cannot speak for him.
DC
Edit: Spelling.
I will acknowledge there may be some miscommunication going on. I don't have time to write another lengthy post right now, but I'll think on this and get back soon. As for Pierwolf and credit on the website, I do not know his preference about that and cannot speak for him.
DC
Edit: Spelling.
Miru
Well-known member
What turned me off of playing LNS was the excessive difficulty, and the lack of a true normal difficulty, with what they claimed as "normal" seeming more like a hard mode than anything else, with no continues rather than limited ones. From there; there was a lot of toilet humor (similar to those gross Russian mods) and a few unfitting character picks (shading-wise). Things got a LOT worse with Ultimate; very few of the new characters fit the classic art-style; and this was made worse with a few characters added (Terry for example) actually having sprite sets that would fit the style more. Not to mention the very weird plot twists and wasted potential in the Capcom Universe mode; why is a CHIBI Marty McFly (clearly resized, to boot) taking me to fight SVC Red Arenmers? And why does the peniultimate stage only have Final Fight enemies rather than a mix of all represented games? Why is Marvel represented via the MVC games rather than the SNES ones which would fit better aesthetically? Why is there no Megaman X stage? (the style used in the 32-bit X games fits better than just having MVC Megaman as a bonus stage) Dungeons and Dragons? Warriors of Fate? One thing I do want to compliment them for is the number of custom burning sprites they did.
hechelion
Ok, I understand your point, but let's clarify the things.
First, I didn't never know that Pierwolf had abandoned the game due to the LNS team's modifications. For me, Pierwolf had abandoned the game first, and then the LNS team modified it.
So, I heard about this info yesterday, and then I changed my mind about the LNS team, no matter who the members are involved, ok? Because as a team, all you will share the same reputation, no matter if it's good or bad. So, after knowing all that, I thought that the LNS team wanted to do the same thing with SOR2X as the Final Fight Gold, you can't blame us for thinking that.
Second, in the first contact I wanted to have a good relationship with the LNS team, Nestor can confirm it for you. However, in our first conversation I clearly said that I don't like how the LNS team does things, how talk with the people and how to give the credits. If there's any doubt, I can share the conversation in the inbox Facebook message.
Third, I agreed with the first modified SOR2X pak and I said that the changes are ok for me, but I don't agree with the second bigger pack that changes a LOT of things. However, I said that I can't prohibit him from continuing modifying the game for private gameplays, I'm not the owner of the SOR, but unfortunately we can't cooperate to promote SOR2X because there's too many differences between our versions. Nestor is changing the entire game's mechanic and along the time it will not have the original SOR2X rules anymore. It's very different of what other modders do, like add new characters/stages, change sprites, add custom music, add cutscenes and make translation, all it preserving the game's core.
Fourth, I suggested to Nestor that it's better to not start a project (I'm referring to BIG projects, like FFLNS) using other people's games to avoid confusion (like now), I warned him a few times. Now your team needs to deal with the consequences.
I asked Nestor and I will ask you too. Why does a high skilled group like the LNS team don't create a totally new game from scratch? You all have enough knowledge to do it.
And last, making changes in the engine or any game and saying that your version is "much much much better" or the other people's version is "unplayable for us" is not the best way to start a feedback. You all, as a team, need to think about the way you deal with other devs, we can all learn and grow if we respect each other. This forum has a friendly community, I can confirm that after years of relationship here. I made great friends, we all are peacefully sharing our ideas, even with some disagreements. I suggest you all do the same, and maybe one day can come back to home.
PS: I mentioned to start big projects from scratch and I was not a hypocrite. I will show the first SOR2X propotype.
Ok, I understand your point, but let's clarify the things.
First, I didn't never know that Pierwolf had abandoned the game due to the LNS team's modifications. For me, Pierwolf had abandoned the game first, and then the LNS team modified it.
So, I heard about this info yesterday, and then I changed my mind about the LNS team, no matter who the members are involved, ok? Because as a team, all you will share the same reputation, no matter if it's good or bad. So, after knowing all that, I thought that the LNS team wanted to do the same thing with SOR2X as the Final Fight Gold, you can't blame us for thinking that.
Second, in the first contact I wanted to have a good relationship with the LNS team, Nestor can confirm it for you. However, in our first conversation I clearly said that I don't like how the LNS team does things, how talk with the people and how to give the credits. If there's any doubt, I can share the conversation in the inbox Facebook message.
Third, I agreed with the first modified SOR2X pak and I said that the changes are ok for me, but I don't agree with the second bigger pack that changes a LOT of things. However, I said that I can't prohibit him from continuing modifying the game for private gameplays, I'm not the owner of the SOR, but unfortunately we can't cooperate to promote SOR2X because there's too many differences between our versions. Nestor is changing the entire game's mechanic and along the time it will not have the original SOR2X rules anymore. It's very different of what other modders do, like add new characters/stages, change sprites, add custom music, add cutscenes and make translation, all it preserving the game's core.
Fourth, I suggested to Nestor that it's better to not start a project (I'm referring to BIG projects, like FFLNS) using other people's games to avoid confusion (like now), I warned him a few times. Now your team needs to deal with the consequences.
I asked Nestor and I will ask you too. Why does a high skilled group like the LNS team don't create a totally new game from scratch? You all have enough knowledge to do it.
And last, making changes in the engine or any game and saying that your version is "much much much better" or the other people's version is "unplayable for us" is not the best way to start a feedback. You all, as a team, need to think about the way you deal with other devs, we can all learn and grow if we respect each other. This forum has a friendly community, I can confirm that after years of relationship here. I made great friends, we all are peacefully sharing our ideas, even with some disagreements. I suggest you all do the same, and maybe one day can come back to home.
PS: I mentioned to start big projects from scratch and I was not a hypocrite. I will show the first SOR2X propotype.
Good night, I would like to revere the creators of this great engine and these wonderful games and leave my opinion as a common man, average user about this controversy.
First of all I like to see people I admire behaving like adults, leaving vanities aside and solving their problems, congratulations damon and hechelion.
You are dream creators, you bring to us men who are homesick for happy times in our lives; more of those moments that we long thought were lost.
Pierwolf, is an artist, he created a great and revered work. So much so that it served as inspiration for so many others, when creating games with their base. (just look on the internet, a Thai team that creates modifications on top of the ffgold, a Japanese team, the lns team, etc…) How great it must be to be able to provide so many ordinary people (who don't have their genius) the ability to work in your project, create and put your dreams out.
I remember how exciting it was when I imagined the possibility of games with characters from different franchises, mixing different universes. The LNS team made this a reality, and apparently it was not just my wish, more than thousands of other people. That they are less like “drug addicts” as previously mentioned by a moderator; and more like people who are able to relive happy moments of their lives with these games and have a horizon that shows that these moments still have life and that, next year, they may even have some new update.
I know there is hostility, and strong temperaments on both sides. If, on the one hand, they use the engine and do not give due credit to the developers, it is not correct; on the other hand, it must not be good to dedicate years of your life to a project and be taxed by moderators as a thief, as if all the effort and altruism were less a source of pride and more of shame.
I hope that they will be able to resolve their differences and that the whole community will be magnified with this.
*Sorry for bad English.
First of all I like to see people I admire behaving like adults, leaving vanities aside and solving their problems, congratulations damon and hechelion.
You are dream creators, you bring to us men who are homesick for happy times in our lives; more of those moments that we long thought were lost.
Pierwolf, is an artist, he created a great and revered work. So much so that it served as inspiration for so many others, when creating games with their base. (just look on the internet, a Thai team that creates modifications on top of the ffgold, a Japanese team, the lns team, etc…) How great it must be to be able to provide so many ordinary people (who don't have their genius) the ability to work in your project, create and put your dreams out.
I remember how exciting it was when I imagined the possibility of games with characters from different franchises, mixing different universes. The LNS team made this a reality, and apparently it was not just my wish, more than thousands of other people. That they are less like “drug addicts” as previously mentioned by a moderator; and more like people who are able to relive happy moments of their lives with these games and have a horizon that shows that these moments still have life and that, next year, they may even have some new update.
I know there is hostility, and strong temperaments on both sides. If, on the one hand, they use the engine and do not give due credit to the developers, it is not correct; on the other hand, it must not be good to dedicate years of your life to a project and be taxed by moderators as a thief, as if all the effort and altruism were less a source of pride and more of shame.
I hope that they will be able to resolve their differences and that the whole community will be magnified with this.
*Sorry for bad English.
