Feeling discouraged about my options ...

[PS_VITA]

...for almost a year I enjoyed learning and using openbor,  especially tinkering with the double dragon RA Mod and even slightly helping the vita community getting to play the full version of the game on vita along with a newer version of openbor vita by reporting the many issues the unofficial port had.

Fastfoward almost a year later and I'm still here day by day learning and creating new stages, enemies,  music,  until recently the game ran out of memory when running it on vita.

The way it works is that, the game will reach stage 4 and crash due to insufficient memory , however if I relaunch the game (by restarting openbor),  I can load the game and still be able to play stage 4 and continue all the way until I beat the game.

Now this has left me with several options if I want to continue working on this personal project,  should I either quit trying to make this work on vita and just stick to PC? Or should I simply cut some content to try and save some memory? Content such as previous characters,  stages, sfx, music, ect.

I'm kinda heart broken,  as I honestly thought that I was doing a good job at optimizing the game and I thought that I could maintain a level of sufficient memory by simply making smaller stages in between levels like the "CD" hallways loading rooms found in castlevania sotn and thought that the engine could free up memory that way, also I converted tons of .gifs into pngs and help clean some code that was chugging the vita port.

But alas I need to make a decision and I was wondering if any of you had to go through something similar.

Whatever option I end up making,  it's going to be a downer for me

 

[danno]

Do both, cut content on the vita and work on pc, way back in the day I used to get frustrated trying to port Mr Q's mods to dreamcast (ram issues) after that I became frustrated because the engine couldn't do what I wanted it to do, (code issues) now it can do what ever I can imagine but I get frustrated with my own lack of knoweledge as to how to do it,(my brain issues) eventually I want to make my own game and sell it on steam etc I'm still a few years away from doing that and if I'm going to do that on my own it's not gonna be a very good game  ;D theres no way I can do all the art and coding by myself unless I keep it simple.... frustrating, I have a few hobbies but openbor/gaming is something I actually want to do something with, I will eventually despite how disheartening it can seem at times for whatever reason make my own game, I'm thankful to Damon for keeping this community alive, him doing that has kept a dream of mine alive.

 

[DCurrent]

PS VITA,

I think it's time for a little tough love. The following is not against you at all (or anyone else). I'm having to speak through text, so you're just going to have to trust this is being direct to the situation and not personal criticism.

First, you are still very much at a basic skill level. The questions you ask clearly indicate you don't yet have a fundamental understanding of the engine, game mechanics, graphics, or workflow. There is NOTHING bad about that. I'd never eat anyone's lunch over not knowing something. You are asking questions and clearly trying to learn. That's the best attitude to have.

The problem is you're in way over your head. I often tell people don't be afraid to try things. Experiment with some script. Open other modules to see how they work, and so on. Only yesterday I told Wombat2112 to stop wasting time wondering if something is possible and just skip right to figuring out how to do it. Unfortunately, you took it to an extreme. If you want to swim, you got to jump in the water... but but would you try to teach yourself in a class 5 rapid? Would you start guitar lessons playing Clapton? Would you climb into the ring your first day and throw hands with Foreman?

Why does it matter? Because in all three of those examples, you never actually learn anything. You drown, humiliate yourself, or get sent to traction in a coma.

What you did with OpenBOR is just like that. Starting with no prior experience, you attempted to rework and optimize the last released module from one of this community's most advanced creators. All on a platform we don't even support, with an engine port that not one person here has ever seen the code for. Plus, you did all this flat face against the advice of myself and several other community members. Now you are frustrated and getting nowhere. What did you think would happen?

You would have made far better progress had you spent the first six months learning the basics on a more pedestrian module and working up some projects of your own, then coming back and spending the other six on the Double Dragon project.

All that said, what's done is done. You can't have that year back - so learn from it. Go back and re-read the advice we gave you and take some of the stuff you picked up into future work.



Now for some technical advice:

Cutting content is not optimizing. Optimizing is when you get the same result for less resources. Cutting is compressing. As a creator I would never be OK with someone doing that to my work, but that's between you and them.

Making levels shorter won't fix anything by itself. There is a reason memory consumption gradually increases as you play. O_Ilusionista and myself explained this to you already: OpenBOR reloads level assets by default, but NOT models. Once a model is loaded into memory, it stays there forever. This is done intentionally because it is the best general compromise for performance vs. memory consumption. Most beat-em-ups reuse models after they appear for the first time, so it makes sense not to reload them again and again. Like all things, you can override this behavior to suit your needs. Forcing the engine to load a model every level will increase loading times but prevents building up models in memory as you play.

The catch is it may not matter. If you have a level that happens to use all the models anyway, (like final levels that tend to throw everything at you), well obviously it must put them all into memory. So, this is where careful engineering and game design comes into play.

That's only the beginning. Your selected project is full of less-than-optimal scripts and design choices. One I recall is weapons. As an example, if you look closely, you'll notice many of the animations for carrying small weapons (like upward walking) don't need their own sprites. In fact, it's an animation mistake since the weapon is in the wrong hand. Fixing those to reuse the unarmed versions will eliminate ~50 sprites from the Lee brothers alone without losing any animation or content at all.

There's much more where this came from, but we're already at TL; DR, so I'll save it for another day.

HTH,
DC

PS: danno, thank YOU sir. The shout out means more than I can say.

 

[PS_VITA]

danno  Thank you for your advice I still need some time to process it all.

Damon Caskey
Thank you for your words of wisdom and you and your team and magggas mod are the sole reason why this hobby has helped me trough some of the most harsh years in human history and in my life.

And I know my skills are really low and I know I might never create a new game from scratch or even get to share my own personal project because rightfully so I cant even do that.

But I just wanted to assure you that my time with openbor has been nothing but life changing and very most likely keeping away from a dark place.

I wake up very often and the first thing I think about is how can I fix this or how can I make this better and with a huge smile in my face.

I have shared via local coach coop some of the content that I've created with some of my closest friends and we are having an absolute blast- which it the end it makes all worthwhile.

And I apologize  if I came off as someone that's frustrated and stubborn - I'm actually very grateful and of course I'm only human so I tend to get discouraged when I hit a wall. 

I never planned an end game as I started using openbor and I still don't know what will happen in the future
but all I know is that I want to keep going and see how far I can go..


(Also) - In before "Vita means life"

;D


Much Love and peace to you all
have a blessed day






 

 

[Wombat2112]

@PS_Vita Honestly about a year ago I was exactly where you are. I can sympathize. And the thing is I learned Visual C++ years ago and even attended Full Sail in Orlando. But when I was learning it was mainly 3-D engines. This is a 2.5 D engine coding is similar but approached differently on graphics especially. When I had my intro to Visual C++ I remember one instructor remarking he would have preferred I had no experience in plain old C and basic, but it wasn't a reason to deter me from learning. It was because of things the Visual C++ was so different in its approach. What Damon and Danno are saying are right but I will go the "non" tough love way because I understand that everyone is different and then you can say well I have had the "balance" of things. And had it not been for the empathetic pep talks and advisement from Danno (who I am so grateful to) I would have abandoned Open Bor and went for something more like Godot or Unity but I knew in my mind I would be limited. He deserves a credit for anything I create with this engine just for what he did for my morale. It's not that Damon is trying to be hard on you. And I don't know him personally so I can't speak for him. But in this world there is no easy way out for things worthwhile. Only you can decide if it’s worth it to stick with it. If you have ever been to Damon's Youtube page he has a video there in it he mentioned that OB is the most powerful open source engine in the world. This is very true. Believe me I have looked at them all.
    I specifically wanted to address the learning part you mentioned. When the FFA instructor handed me my pilots license years ago he said there you go kid, here is your ticket to learning. I thought learning that is all I have done for over a year. What I didn't realize is the learning had only begun. I hadn't learned every maneuver for every situation. You will continue to learn as long as you live. If one day you are 80 years old you will still continue to learn. And game and development especially coding is like learning to fly. The learning will continue. But in the end what you gain makes it all worth it. 
  I post on the forums. Use it but also try things on your own when you can. In general I have the worst luck on them. I'm like the geek no one likes or sometimes I feel that way. LOL I either inadvertently break a rule or someone misunderstands what I posted or I misunderstood what they said. I was on another forum last week. I responded to a thread that was a little old but open and when I hit post a window appeared and asked "are you sure you want respond to a thread this old" Well I hit yes because no one had followed up and it’s what I was looking for at the time so I just kind of thought well bump! lol. A window popped up and said all posts have to be approved. Two days later I logged back on and in my inbox I have a warning that I posted to an archived thread and so essentially I was getting my slap on the wrist don't do that. I thought than why was the thread approved in the first place?
  However regardless of how I felt about it the if it weren't for the forum and the people who provided it that tool would not be there and in the case of open bor there are limited tutorials and limited people who can help you. But the resources are there. So the forum is your friend even if things don't always make sense to us personally. I'm not even the rule breaking type, or even a rebel personality. I'm the quiet guy in the back of the room that no one really knows because I am shy. However the forum wasn't created for one type it’s like a universal tool that can't be tweaked to fit thousands of individual types. 
    Getting discouraged I understand as much as anyone, I promise. I had cancer for years and when things got bad last year I said well I don't have the time for this. I need to make my short time about my dog and my mom because they are the only family I have. So I just forgot all about this. However my cancer at the worst part within months went into a full remission. I don't even feel like I beat it because in just a couple months I went from not being hardly able to eat without throwing it up to riding my Rob Roskopp skateboard again and being 100% cancer free. I can't explain it but I feel so damn lucky because most of the other patients in the facility I was in never got to come home. I have been to several of those guys funerals since. When you are handed an expiration date it changes everything that is important. However when I came home I thought once again about Open bor and how I had always wanted to create my own game. There is the unreal engine but I would have to go through classes again, reviews things because changing careers then getting sick I was so off course. OB is the best way to get there without starting from 0 
I started in software and then later went on to media marketing. Keep in mind that when a game is created and you beat it at the end you see all those credits. In many cases 100's of names, but a handful of guys are tackling one aspect. You can shorten or lengthen the projects but that won't solve every issue. It's not something you can learn over night or even over year. The best programmers and designers skills come from years of learning. Right now I am working on a shooter. While I am thankful for this forum I try to use it as little as possible. I try to learn what I can on my own. Often as Damon mentioned I will ask that same old question of can I do this? The answer is yes it's the how that truly matters....at the same time I word things how I do when I am talking. I know it’s all possible but sometimes when posting on a forum it's easy for me to forget it is different than conversation. I have been fortunate to have a few people who were kind of enough to allow me to message them from time to time for advice. I just do better that way myself...now others may be completely different.
  I like Danno want to make my own complete project. He is correct it’s a lot of work. I have doing everything from one day making sounds with my processor keyboards and guitar borrowed a studio my friends has and have been making art, art, art. But I don't feel like I am in over my head because I took off the pressure I was putting on myself off in a lot of ways by setting a deadline for myself or being stuck in only doing it through one vision alone. That is one thing I don't have is that pressure that one working in that field has. Which is to produce a quality project within a certain time frame. I still haven't compiled anything in months just creating my world and what it looks like. Even with all those aspects though I don't think I can do it I KNOW I can. It’s up to me though of I get there.
  My first project Danno told me keep it simple. And I thought well I understand but I don't want simple or average or ordinary. I don't like to be limited but what I didn't realize at the time....If I followed the advice given to me by the time I got to my next project, I had room and time to take things to the next levels because I wouldn't be struggling with those things I initially struggled with I may have to review something but it all comes back to you typically. The best programmers and designers skills come from years of learning and building upon that knowledge. The PS2 sold better and had a better variety of games than the X-box which was superior in terms of what it could do, but in this line it's about being able to utilize those tools and be most efficient. C, C++ Visual is a POWERFUL flexible language. It can accomplish much.
  It all boils down to this. What is my goal and what am I trying to accomplish. Is this really what I want? Once you answer that question. if the answer is YES. Then break it down in steps. Like Danno was saying don't be too concerned right now with getting it to work on Vita or a particular console. The PC can do anything. When your project is done you can then rewind and focus your attention to the port. There are guys I know that is All they do. They don't have anything to do with the overall creative design of the game their job is making it playable or porting through a device. There are people out there who can help down the road like KMFDManac he can get almost anything to work as long as the device has the power to run the program and understand it, SO focus on getting your project done. Even if you say well I originally wanted a 10 level game and now I am willing to settle for 6 you still have to overcome what it is you’re trying to do. Shortening is often done for the sake of deadlines and or memory and not lack of knowledge.
      I'm not a trained mind or anything, just a southern boy from central North Carolina but I can relate to much of the struggle and if you ever need to talk to someone and you feel you need some encouragement anyone as far as I know can message me. I have an open door private message policy, not every user has time for that but if you are feeling down or discouraged you are welcome to message me and I will be glad to offer what advice I can.

Here are some tips I think are valid whether you are working for a software company or just trying to use an engine to create something homebrew and even life in general. None of them are technical and have to do with the engine but they do have to do with life when you are feeling discouraged.

*Don't stop living. I have made the mistake of sitting in front of a PC for 10 hours, frustrated trying to solve one problem. If something isn't working out try different things you can always come back to it or go another route. Most film makers will tell you they accomplished a fraction of what they wanted to.
*Go outside you need fresh air sunshine: Sunday I took my dog and my AR15 out to a field and exploded some water bottles. Things like that sometimes are like resetting your PC. Only it's you that gets the fresh restart.  For me it’s shooting guns it might be something different for yourself.
*Eat and I mean get out..go out…somewhere even if its making a sandwich and sitting in a porch swing or going to a restaurant. You will never reach your full potential never leaving your computer chair depriving yourself of a good meal and living out of a snack machine.
*Ideas sometimes come to you when you least expect it lots of times when you are not even thinking or working on your project 
*Read and consult the manual often, many times the answer was already there I just missed it.
*Review and READ the forums. You don't always have to post something to learn
*Don't get stuck on any one idea, not saying change your entire goal, but always consider other paths/ methods to achieve your goals
* Have a mental and physical blueprint for anything you want to achieve my father used to tell me to write down everything when I was budgeting myself, sometimes until you see things on paper it's easy to miss something.
*Keep in mind most people here generally want to you to succeed, to accomplish your goal, it's good for the engine and for the community.
*If you are feeling down and play a video game a fun one, that is what made us all want to do this. Someone who doesn't play and enjoy games isn’t going to make a good game.

*Compromise that doesn’t mean you can’t achieve it but flexible thinking is key. The language itself is flexible
*Always talk to people don’t live shut in, even if you don’t feel like the most popular or coolest guy, interacting with other people is a powerful learning tool. It in itself is a gift

*Keep the chin up no matter what!

*Like Danno was refering to "the dream" . The dream is something many of us share and is being kept alive here at CC. If it's your dream....make it happen you can do it!

 

[PS_VITA]

Wombat2112

Dude... you hit the feels man  :'(

What a beautiful post!

Dude, congrats overcoming all your challenges and obstacles along the way... I'm definitely inspired,  so cool. .. very nice to meet you sir.

 

[Wombat2112]

Wombat2112

Dude... you hit the feels man  :'(

What a beautiful post!

Dude, congrats overcoming all your challenges and obstacles along the way... I'm definitely inspired,  so cool. .. very nice to meet you sir.

Very nice to meet you.....don't be down....don'r be discoraged you have some GREAT people here...At CC You're in good hands here I promise that combined with your own god given creative talent and ability makes YOU limitless! Go forth! "To indeed be a God!

 

[PS_VITA]

small update,  after playing around with know and load options,  I was able to play the game from beginning to end without the vita port running out of memory.  Thank you Damon Caskey  .

Anyone know why every sprites is doubled in size for DDRA? Was there a reason the author had to make this drastic decision? I'm guessing there were no resolution or scaling options that fit his vision at the time  the game was being created?
I mean the game is 640X 480 afterall.

 

[kimono]

Wombat2112:

*Keep in mind most people here generally want to you to succeed, to accomplish your goal, it's good for the engine and for the community.

This is true . I'm always glad when some people manage to reach their goal and release some wonderful games. The teamwork is sometimes the key to success; this is sometimes hard because everyone has his own project in mind .
I'm always remember this guy who say simply: "DO IT! Don't let dreams stay dreams!".

For the Double Dragon Reloaded Alternate, I know that the author has enlarged them because he likes wider sprites.
It's just an author's mod choice, nothing more AFAIK.

 

[DCurrent]

PS VITA,

Anyone know why every sprites is doubled in size for DDRA? Was there a reason the author had to make this drastic decision? I'm guessing there were no resolution or scaling options that fit his vision at the time  the game was being created?

kimono is correct. It's a personal choice by the creator, and nothing more. All the custom resolution and scaling options we have now were available then.

DC

 

[PS_VITA]

I was tempted to shrink the sprites (including backgrounds)to half the size ;D to save some memory,  but atleast from what I can tell you, it looks like a logistical nightmare because I would also have to shrink down every wall, hole, bboxes and who knows what else.

 

[Wombat2112]

I was tempted to shrink the sprites (including backgrounds)to half the size ;D to save some memory,  but atleast from what I can tell you, it looks like a logistical nightmare because I would also have to shrink down every wall, hole, bboxes and who knows what else.

That's the nightmare I'm living starting from complete scratch. I have had the time for it so it has been fun but realistically only able to produce so much at one tiime and keeping it all sized properly. I kept it simple enough to avoid a big mess. I have two boss characters 1 has 6 usable frames, the other 4...which the primary attack methods won't require too much movement. Even still it has still required much thought as I am trying to sketch from a coding perspective. I keep asking can I deliver 6 levels of this.....or just even finish 4. Maybe not this year.