Smart Kitty
Active member
the video is set as private btw
Streets of Rage X (Windows / Android) - Weight/Size Split
- Thread starter Smart Kitty
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haxxan
Member
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@Kratus, in the case of bigger guys, why not just make a bigger hole - i.e. busting through the wall a little? If you were making a window break graphic anyway, what's the difference?
In what universe? If you go by the real world, there's this thing called biology. She'd weigh far less AND have less strength per kilo than pretty much every other character in the game, playable or otherwise. That's just the reality of human sexual dimorphism. Of course you can throw that out in fiction land. Either just decide martial skill trumps physics or ignore such trivialities all together. But you still need some game balance.
Much as I hate having Blaze with low damage, even I have to admit there must be a weakness somewhere. She's already better than everyone else at just about every other thing. If she had power on top of that, what's the point of the others even being there besides aesthetics?
Personally, I hate stat based balancing. IMO it's cliche and and basic. I'd rather design balance into other, more subtle factors - but when working with an established franchise with expected moves, designs, etc., @Kratus is kind of painted in a corner.
DC
In what universe? If you go by the real world, there's this thing called biology. She'd weigh far less AND have less strength per kilo than pretty much every other character in the game, playable or otherwise. That's just the reality of human sexual dimorphism. Of course you can throw that out in fiction land. Either just decide martial skill trumps physics or ignore such trivialities all together. But you still need some game balance.
Much as I hate having Blaze with low damage, even I have to admit there must be a weakness somewhere. She's already better than everyone else at just about every other thing. If she had power on top of that, what's the point of the others even being there besides aesthetics?
Personally, I hate stat based balancing. IMO it's cliche and and basic. I'd rather design balance into other, more subtle factors - but when working with an established franchise with expected moves, designs, etc., @Kratus is kind of painted in a corner.
DC
haxxan
Member
The real one, where 180lb Gracie and 183lb Sakuraba won UFC heavyweight titles because skill + training beats size like you said. Been about 30 years of MMA to find this out. Judo is entirely technique and gravity over weight. But this is a game with jetpacks and robots, don't think we're going for the real world.
Kinesiology is near and dear - so If you really want to go in on this - I'll bite. That example doesn't prove much of anything. Gracie and Sakuraba were smaller, but NOT small. They are both physically powerful men, not to mention back then, the rules of UFC and Pride were specifically tailored to give submission grapplers the advantage. Context matters bigtime.
I used to buy into the martial arts is magic thing when I was a kid. Then I actually became a martial artist and found out very different. Fifth Dan former Goshin-Jutsu instructor and boxed for 5 years (nothing special, 16-2 amateur record at University of Kentucky boxing club). I stand 1.82 meters and tip scales at 93KG. I'm not a small guy and I know what I'm doing. And? I couldn't take Brock Lesnar because I have more stripes on my black belt than him. Middling 5-3-1 record and lived on pure athleticism - Yeah, he'd merrily stuff me into a Pringles can while listening to The Carpenters.
Conversely, in no world is a 1.62m, 60KG girl going to roll me or anyone like me unless she's lucky beyond reason or packing heat. That's a power fantasy. The physical disparity goes beyond just "bigger". Physical strength is a matter of cross sectional area (≈ length^2). You and I are not just larger and stronger than your typical female. Our average force output is several times greater, plus we have more fast twitch control, greater bone density, and higher hemoglobin concentrations. We're talking roughly 50-60% more upper body strength (Miller et al., 1993), and 30-40% greater lower body strength (Janssen et al., 2000). That's mass vs. mass, BEFORE you factor any size difference, with similar speed differences. It's just too much for skill to overcome.
If you prefer more a concrete example, take a simple lever - the principle on which most technique works, especially CQC:
Fe * Le = F1 * L1
So, assuming perfect a perfect scenario of non-resisting targets and no parasitic losses, I could take a 4 meter lever, place the fulcrum one meter from the load, and with my weight manage roughly 900 newtons. Enough to lift ~380KG. About 3.5 times what I could manage unaided - but I still can't pick up a car. Now take human vs. human. Your fulcrum moves, your target resists, and the best possible lever is third class, made of flesh, and roughly half a meter. See the problem? You have an advantage, but not enough to overcome a physical mismatch. That's why we have opposable thumbs and the intelligence to make tools (weapons).
Or, as you say, throw it all out. This is fiction. And as I said, I agree 100%. It still doesn't change the need for some form of game balance. Compared to the others, Blaze is faster, has more and better moves, segues her combos easier, has some of the best weapon usage, and a high recovery rate for energy. She needs some type of weakness or she makes the others superfluous.
DC
Miller, A. E., MacDougall, J. D., Tarnopolsky, M. A., & Sale, D. G. (1993). Gender differences in strength and muscle fiber characteristics. European journal of applied physiology and occupational physiology, 66(3), 254–262. https://doi.org/10.1007/BF00235103
Janssen, I., Heymsfield, S. B., Wang, Z. M., & Ross, R. (2000). Skeletal muscle mass and distribution in 468 men and women aged 18-88 yr. Journal of applied physiology (Bethesda, Md. : 1985), 89(1), 81–88. https://doi.org/10.1152/jappl.2000.89.1.81
Janssen, I., Heymsfield, S. B., Wang, Z. M., & Ross, R. (2000). Skeletal muscle mass and distribution in 468 men and women aged 18-88 yr. Journal of applied physiology (Bethesda, Md. : 1985), 89(1), 81–88. https://doi.org/10.1152/jappl.2000.89.1.81
Wow, I loved the stage 2 track. It resembles a 2000's CD which I like a lot, Rave Trip 2, made by Camilo Rocha.
I will post some of his tracks in another post.
Yeah, it's not a bad idea. I didn't make it because I was avoiding changing the level graphics too much, but I will do some tests in this aspect.
Thanks boss
Exactly, I even risk some new stuff in the game but the classic mechanics are the backbone of SORX.
As a JKD practitioner, I can confirm that.
kimono
Well-known member
May I offer a counter-example?
62kg versus 240kg; certainly, weight and power are a significant advantage that shouldn't be overlooked.
On the other hand, experience and a fighting spirit are another.
I agree that she has no interest in being held back by such a weight difference.
It can be said that she fought well and preserved her honor where some people look down on their opponent.
I also appreciate the fact that those with inappropriate behavior are often "punished" on the field (although I am aware that this is not always the case and that one must be wary of underhanded tactics).
I also have several years of experience in martial arts, and I would never make the mistake of underestimating anyone and finding myself in a difficult position. Always being aware of my surroundings and reading everyone's intentions is my motto
On the other hand, experience and a fighting spirit are another.
I agree that she has no interest in being held back by such a weight difference.
It can be said that she fought well and preserved her honor where some people look down on their opponent.
I also appreciate the fact that those with inappropriate behavior are often "punished" on the field (although I am aware that this is not always the case and that one must be wary of underhanded tactics).
I also have several years of experience in martial arts, and I would never make the mistake of underestimating anyone and finding myself in a difficult position. Always being aware of my surroundings and reading everyone's intentions is my motto
lanyer
Member
Hey folks, don't take it so seriously. A fictional martial arts world needs its own consistent logic. For example, bigger characters have to be relatively clunky—slower runners, lower jumpers. Meanwhile, the smaller ones absolutely have the upper hand in agility and speed. Sure, it might not reflect how the real world works, but there has to be some playable balance. Otherwise, the worldbuilding in most modern games would just fall apart. Think about it: in most fighting games, characters of different sizes or genders wouldn't realistically stand a chance sharing the same stage. Can you imagine if Street Fighter II played out in real life? Zangief could crush Chun-Li like a tiny chick with just one hand.
haxxan
Member
Bruv, I genuinely don't care about any of this, I just asked for a fictional character to have more pop. Jetpacks and robots, like I said. But the bad faith Lesnar example did make me lol, middling UFC record a killer's row with diverticulosis and pro wrestling miles. That'll be the D1 wrestling skill set though.
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