Pool time: Platformer stages

[O Ilusionista]

Pool time: what is your opinion about beat em ups that have platform levels (like Double Dragon for NES)?


Some explanations:
- There are pit falls and you lose a life if you fall on it.
- 2D gameplay (no Z depth movement, and you can duck/crouch to dodge things)
- They happen - so far - in just one stage, which was made specific for this.

The idea is to have one or another level like this, with 2D gameplay, but have a specific level for that. During other levels, there may be higher or lower parts just to make the game less linear.

 

[DCurrent]

I like them, and plan to do them myself. In fact, it kind of bothers me that very few (none that I know of off hand) take advantage of the Z axis. In other words, having platforming areas that utilize lateral jumping. Here's a super, super rough mockup of a stage I'm planning.



If you wanted to get REALLY evil, even requiring some diagonal jumps. Not that I would do that. Not at all.

The catch, like anything else, is that no mechanic exists in a vacuum. For this to work, you need to have lateral jumping to begin with, and this can severely alter the fighting mechanics, so it's something that has to be planned for.

Also, how forgiving do you plan to be? My game only gives you one life, so instant deaths are serious business and I'm not into frustration for its own sake. On the other hand, landing in lava/spikes/acid/bottomless/whatever should obviously be a huge threat. So in my case, a missed jump isn't an automatic death, but will cause massive damage (at least 1/3 of your HP pool) and when your character escapes, they end up where the jump must be attempted again.

Now obviously for any of this to feel right to the player, the jump control has to be precise, and there should be a clear interface for it (ex. a shadow below to show your relative Z position). Pre jump animations are also something to consider. Normally, a longer pre-jump looks better in beat em' ups, but if you include platforming elements, the pre-jumps need to be very short (4 delay total or less) to keep platforming action smooth.

There's more to it, but that's enough wall of text for now.

DC

 

[Bloodbane]

My major issue with platformer stages in 3D beatmups is how enemies deal with platforms. This issue is the root cause of more issues:
1. Being forced to drop down just to defeat enemies which can't follow you.
2. Seeing enemies falling to holes when they are going to get you. I know it's good news to players but it's a waste of time placing enemies for that.
3. Some enemies could prevent you from dropping down or jumping up to higher platform safely, forcing you to do extreme stuffs such as jumping far ahead or performing special which could hit enemies while moving. It gets worse if enemies shoot or toss bombs.

That being said, I'm not against platformer stages in 3D beatmups. I suggest these to make the former good:
1. Design enemies and bosses specifically for platformers.
2. Change stage goal from defeating all enemies to reaching exit/goal. If players want to defeat all enemies, they are free to do that but it's not required at all.
3. Avoid scrolling up/down in horizontal stages to prevent a player getting left below/above when the other players are going above/below.

 

[DCurrent]

My major issue with platformer stages in 3D beatmups is how enemies deal with platforms. This issue is the root cause of more issues:
1. Being forced to drop down just to defeat enemies which can't follow you.
2. Seeing enemies falling to holes when they are going to get you. I know it's good news to players but it's a waste of time placing enemies for that.
3. Some enemies could prevent you from dropping down or jumping up to higher platform safely, forcing you to do extreme stuffs such as jumping far ahead or performing special which could hit enemies while moving. It gets worse if enemies shoot or toss bombs.

That being said, I'm not against platformer stages in 3D beatmups. I suggest these to make the former good:
1. Design enemies and bosses specifically for platformers.
2. Change stage goal from defeating all enemies to reaching exit/goal. If players want to defeat all enemies, they are free to do that but it's not required at all.
3. Avoid scrolling up/down in horizontal stages to prevent a player getting left below/above when the other players are going above/below.

This is indeed an issue, and speaks to what I mentioned earlier. Nothing exists in a vacuum. If you look back on old school platformers, the way they tended to handle this was with having super simple enemies that mainly came in these types:

1. Koopa Troopa - Literally no AI. They walk until they hit a wall and turn around. If there's a pit, they just suicide. These types usually rely on repsawns and careful spawn positioning.
2. Red Koopa Troopa - Same as above, but the AI stops at pits and turns around.
3. Snipers - No movement at all. They're just in place as an obstacle. Often they have some sort of projectile. Some can turn around, but many don't even do that.
4. Eagles - Remember these guys? Pits and platforms don't matter because they can fly. And they often use annoying back and forth or sinosoid patters.
5. Ninja - It's really rare, but occasionally you see an enemy that does platforming with you. Two examples I can think of are enemy ninja in arcade Shinobi that can switch platforms to follow Joe, and the weird dino mask looking guys in NES Ninja Gaiden that run along and jump onto platforms. The latter only show up in certain places and make hard coded jumps.

The problem with all of these is they tend rely on collision damage, placement, and a lot of hardcoded behavior. I've only seen one beat em' up where enemies could platform a lot, and that was arcade Ninja Gaiden. All the enemies would climb up or down lateral platforms to persue Ryu, and the ninjas could follow him onto the tightrope sections.

Where I'm going with all this is that you'll want to counteract the problems @Bloodbane points out with a mix of enemies and level design that "cheats" a little, without feeling unatural.

To use my case as an example, some of the enemies are fire elementals and magma golems that simply walk through the lava and then climb up onto the ledges to fight you. The lava itself will occasionaly splatter or spout, and you have to avoid it.

There will be normal terristrial enemies as well, but in their case, I will just have to do some hard code override so their platforming is smoother. Esstentially, it will work like this:

1. Are there hostiles on my platform?
   1. No - Are hostiles in area at all?
      1. No - Wander mode.
      2. Yes - Am I at end of platform closest to hostiles?
         1. No - Set waypoint target to end of platform in direction of hostiles.
         2. Yes - Perform preset jump to next platform.
   2. Yes - Normal AI vs. hostiles.

HTH,
DC

 

[DJGameFreakTheIguana]

I don't mind it too much within reason. However, a brings up a question I wanted to ask here for some time, the platforming genre in general, and if it was always good or just certain games were good. Unless there's something really going on platforming in itself can be dull, and mostly serves to make the game more challenging.